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battery backup
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k_ogre Offline

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Post: #1
battery backup
anyone ever try a computer back up? you can get one for about $50 that at 400w should keep a resmed a10 running for over 4 hours
03-14-2015 05:48 AM
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OMyMyOHellYes Online

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Machine: Respironics 560 Auto
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Post: #2
RE: battery backup
Generally not well suited for long term power. Very inefficient. Designed to allow graceful shutdown of a computer system in a short term window, not extend run of an appliance.

UPS = battery + charger + inverter + switching/control mechanism + power input hardware + power output hardware.

A 450 W CyberPower (AVRG750U) spec sheet shows it has an expected run time of only two and a half minutes at 450 watt load, seven minutes at 225 watts. That unit has a 7AH 12 V battery. Assuming a 30% loss to the inverter and switch (I am guessing and probably being optimistic) - best case scenario, you are talking maybe 5AH available battery capacity.

Using Resmed's Battery Guide, and assuming that the A10 setup includes climate line tubing, humidifier set to auto, and an average pressure of 10 cm, an 8 hour run, with safety reserve, would require a 46 AH 12 V battery. Without allowing any safety margin (assuming a perfect battery under perfect conditions) it would require a 30AH super battery (Resmed shows current draw at that pressure is 3.77 amps). Maximum theoretical run time under those perfect conditions would be maybe an hour and 20 minutes. And since we live in the real world and there is no such thing as a perfect condition super battery, I would assume less than an hour.

Which, if the power blinks for only a couple of minutes, the UPS would be good. I run a UPS on my broadband provider's wireless home gateway router because we have mini-outages lasting a minute or two maybe once a month or two. When those happen, every router in this part of town goes down. When power comes back up and all those routers try to initialize and log back on the network all at the same time, it takes a long time to get back online. That is just a convenience thing for me, not a medical necessity.

But if the outage lasts more than an hour, the UPS is probably not gonna make it through running an A-10 CPAP.

If the power goes out, I wake up right away. If the outage lasts more than a couple of minutes, I just get up, bring in a battery, hook it up, turn off the humidifier heat, and go back to sleep. The little 35 AH batteries will drive my PR 560 for more than a week in the non-heated condition. Heated humidifiers and tubes eat a LOT of electricity.

And speaking of A-10s, I wish I had one. Not the Resmed variety, the Fairchild Republic version.

OMM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2015 07:29 AM by OMyMyOHellYes.)
03-14-2015 07:06 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #3
RE: battery backup
OMM is spot on. The computer UPS is only good for getting you through transient power loss.
Plus, many UPS use a stepped approximation to a sine as their output on battery. The discontinuities do not work well with newer computer power supplies with active power factor correction -- nor do they work well with a CPAP's power brick.
An option I like is the Optima yellow top, spiral cell, AGM deep-cycle battery.
You keep it on a float charge using a Deltran Battery tender. You will have to get up and connect the CPAP to the battery -- you'll need resmed's 12V to 24V inverter for their machines.

OMM: I do love that A10 Warthog. it's 30 mm GAU-8/A Avenger Gatling-type cannon can put a lot of hot lead on target. Or, depleted Uranium anti armor sabot rounds.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2015 09:51 AM by justMongo.)
03-14-2015 07:31 AM
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bill-e Offline

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Post: #4
RE: battery backup
(03-14-2015 07:31 AM)justMongo Wrote:  OMM: I do love that A10 Warthog. it's 30 mm GAU-8/A Avenger Gatling-type cannon can put a lot of hot lead on target. Or, depleted Uranium anti armor sabot rounds.
Stop, you're getting me excited now Wink

You gotta love an aircraft that was built around the GAU-8
03-14-2015 08:37 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #5
RE: battery backup
I heard an unconfirmed rumor that the initial design choked the engines with ejected gas from the Gatling gun. I believe the engines were relocated to avoid.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
03-14-2015 09:54 AM
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player Offline

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Post: #6
RE: battery backup
Computer ups backups suck because they continually beep when the power goes out which = no sleep so what's the point?
03-14-2015 12:16 PM
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TiredToo Offline

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Post: #7
RE: battery backup
I haven't bought one for it yet but I do plan to. I agree that they are not well suited for long-term power outages, but they are certainly great for power glitches or short outages (5-30 minutes, etc). I have all of my network equipment and security alarm/cameras on a rack mounted UPS, and I have smaller UPS devices for cordless phones and computers. Most of my outages are short, so in my case it makes sense.

Every UPS I have ever owned did beep by default on a mains loss, but also every one had an option to disable the beep which is the first thing I do. Smile
03-14-2015 04:25 PM
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archangle Offline
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Machine: ResMed S9 AutoSet
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Post: #8
RE: battery backup
If you put an S8 machine with the humidifier on a UPS, it may cause damage to the humidifier, according to ResMed. S9 machines are OK on UPS's. It has to do with modified sine wave inverters.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
Useful links.
Click here for information on the main alternative to CPAP.
If it's midnight and a DME tells you it's dark outside, go and check it yourself.
03-14-2015 04:40 PM
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wp6529 Offline

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Post: #9
RE: battery backup
(03-14-2015 12:16 PM)player Wrote:  Computer ups backups suck because they continually beep when the power goes out which = no sleep so what's the point?

Cheap UPSes will beep all the time, higher quality ones (~$150 and up) let you set many parameters, including disabling the beep. That said, if you don't have an automatic backup generator that will take over, wouldn't you want the beep to wake you up when the power to your xPAP is about to go out?

The higher end UPSes can usually be set to not beep until they are at a low battery stage / a few min of run time so you can have a UPS that will ride your through short outages without waking you up and still wake you up for longer outages when it's running out of battery.

Yes UPSes are designed for a relatively short run time at full load, but you can readily oversize the UPS to get the run time you want at your expected load. Since UPSes, even the higher quality ones are fairly inexpensive these days it's really a no-brainer to get one.

The higher quality UPSes are often true sine wave output as well though not many devices are really that sensetive to a reasonable stepped approximation.

With a suitable UPS and an automatic backup generator (also reasonable cost these days) you should be able to sleep through most any outage with no issues.
03-15-2015 09:52 AM
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justMongo Offline

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Post: #10
RE: battery backup
(03-14-2015 04:40 PM)archangle Wrote:  If you put an S8 machine with the humidifier on a UPS, it may cause damage to the humidifier, according to ResMed. S9 machines are OK on UPS's. It has to do with modified sine wave inverters.

The S8 has an internal power supply; and uses AC to heat the humidifier plate. The S8 humidifier switches an SCR to control the humidifier plate. Much like dimmers for incandescent bulbs. SCRs act up in the presence of discontinuities.

The S9 and A10 use DC power for the humidifier. Likely switching a power MOSFET to control heat.

Anyone contemplating using a computer UPS should only use a pure sine output UPS.

INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2015 10:42 AM by justMongo.)
03-15-2015 10:41 AM
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