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fluoride and thyroid
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Mark Douglas Offline

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Post: #1
fluoride and thyroid
A number of people here suffer from thyroid maladies. I am one.

As a matter of logic fluoridation of central water is nonsense on multiple levels and should be stopped.

Of late US standard for fluoridation has been reduced. I wonder why?

Evidence is mounting how damaging this unregulated drugging of people can be.

http://global-4-lvs-colossus.opera-mini....r-flor.pdf

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05-05-2015 05:44 PM
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Post: #2
RE: fluoride and thyroid
I agree there is no reason today to be adding that toxic chemical, in essence rat poison, to potable water anymore. I disagreed with them adding it when it all started. If it was something you could easily filter out fine, I would get a filter to remove it but you can't without some expensive RO system or some other scheme that is ineffective and expensive.

Unfortunately at this point in history, declaring it lethal and stopping its use will have lawyers warming up their lawsuits. Causing water companies to jack rates to cover litigation.



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05-06-2015 06:49 AM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #3
RE: fluoride and thyroid
There is no clear evidence as to any real danger in fluoridation of water, albeit most research has not been of good quality, but no contrary research has been, either. There is a Finnish study published in 1997 showed that fear that water is fluoridated may have a psychological effect with a large variety of symptoms, regardless of whether the water is actually fluoridated. The bigger problem is not added fluoride, but naturally occurring fluoride in water in certain areas, since it can be at excessive levels for safety, but for drinking water where fluoride is a man-made instigated additive, it is kept at safe levels, with the exception of the rare accident or improperly managed treatment centre. At the levels that are normally used, it not only protects teeth, but other bones in the body and so far as we know, poses no danger, but adds considerable benefit for the cost.

However, at least in the developed world, fluoride toothpastes should be sufficient to do the job. I might point out that fluoride is not the only thing added to your drinking water, chlorine, hydrofluosilicic acid and sodium silicofluoride are all common additives. There is no evidence at all that fluoridation can cause thyroid maladies when in normally administered levels. In Switzerland it is not always used, but instead children are given fluoridated salt. In short, there is still a policy of fluoridation, but just done another way.

In the US, this whole argument is often framed in a way as to turn it into a question of rights vs freedoms, of government vs private individual responsibility. In Switzerland it is a question of cost, available resources and other issues, but not as a rights issue. More often the question in Europe is framed as a better use of resources, viz, only a small percent of the water used is for drinking, the rest is for other purposes, and it is a waste of resources to fluoridate all water when the benefit is largely wasted and could be achieved by other means (fluoridated salts, fluoridated tooth paste, etc). This is a reasonable argument, but arguments based on possible health dangers from fluoridated water are, until there is sufficient evidence, specious.
05-06-2015 10:44 AM
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Mark Douglas Offline

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Post: #4
RE: fluoride and thyroid
Doc you wanted another 15 minutes of argument. Here you go Wink

I am a simple blue color technical worker but I do have questions.
Not in any particular order.

To what degree am I medicated in totality with fluoride? What is the dosage?
I drink water fluoridated beyond the natural level. How much do I drink?
Prepackaged beverages are made with tap water.
Does fluoride concentrate in my swimming pool via makeup water?
I breathe in the shower. Do I inhale fluoride in the mist? If so what dosage? Is this dosage more bio-available than other means of ingestion?
I soak in the hot tub.
Is fluoride absorbed through my skin?
Do halogens react in such a way to make iodine unavailable to my thyroid?
What is more reactive? Iodine or fluoride?
I water my vegetable garden with tap water. Do these plants concentrate the fluoride in the edible parts?

Who gets to decide what is good for me?
Elected or unelected bureaucrats?
Can I trust said people to work for my best interests?
(when I look at the news I have my doubts)
If aspirin is beneficial to the heart should it not be injected to tap water?
Is heart disease more or less damaging then dental caries?
Are study results ever skewed to produce results favorable to the funding source?

Quote:This is a reasonable argument, but arguments based on possible health dangers from fluoridated water are, until there is sufficient evidence, specious.
Primum non nocere!

Next perhaps we can discus why the only safe place to store quecksilber is in the human mouth?

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(This post was last modified: 05-06-2015 01:37 PM by Mark Douglas.)
05-06-2015 01:32 PM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #5
RE: fluoride and thyroid
You do not inhale fluoride from shower mist.
You do not absorb it through your skin, so bathing or swimming have no effect.
Your total consumption of fluoride is based on how much you drink and where you live - water that is naturally fluoridated does not have added fluoride during the processing process. If there is more fluoride in your drinking water from natural sources, then you should not drink it, but you also have no reason to blame the water authorities for it - that is fault of geography. Some places are richer in fluoride than others - all water authorities in the US are obligated to follow guidelines about maximum levels of fluoride in the water so they do not as a matter of course add more than that, and there is no financial incentive for them to do so, only bad management or technical errors.
Even drinking 3 or four litres of water with fluoride within the suggested levels per day is in no way dangerous. Nor does it have any effect on your thyroid.
Fluorine is more reactive than Iodine, but fluoride is less reactive than iodine. Confusing fluorine and fluoride is mistake - they are not the same thing, although one comes from the other.
While there has been some noises about plants concentrating fluoride from watering, no actual reliable evidence has been presented, at least none that show sufficient levels to be of any concern. Market vegetables do not seem heavily contaminated by fluoride (in Switzerland, all food products are regularly checked for every form of contamination, so I need only look up the necessary findings, which are available to health authorities at all times).
Several chemical studies suggest that iodine chelates heavy metals such as mercury, lead, cadmium, aluminum, and halogens such as fluoride and bromide, thus decreasing their iodine-inhibiting effects. It is more or less what iodine does for your body (or one of the big thing it does - it is necessary for several organs, not just your thyroid), and why you need it. So keeping a good level of iodine in your system is recommended for your thyroid and to naturally slough out other trace elements than can build up in your system. As such, iodised salt and sea food are recommended as part of a healthy modern diet. Fluoridated water does not have a major effect in tying up iodine or iodides, so far as we currently know. There is not one reliable study to demonstrate it, although many naturopaths claim it, almost entirely without any clear, reliable scientific evidence.

The maximum contaminant level goals (MCLG) for fluoride is 4.0 mg/L. Beyond that there is a risk of adults in later life developing more brittle bones and children developing pitted teeth. Further above that fluoride poisoning can occur. MCLG levels are routinely monitored, and if fluoride or any other contaminant is above that level the water authorities are immediately informed and told to reduce the levels (where possible) or issue warnings when not. Most water authorities also spot sample levels daily themselves. In the US, the EPA sets the guidelines, and then the individual States either follow them or often make them more stringent. To date, no US state has made their mandatory MCLGs more lax than the EPA guidelines. The EPA only issues guidelines, it does not enforce them - that is the for each state to do. The recommended level of fluoride to be added to water, when none is present naturally, is 0.7mg/L. If you notice this as a discrepancy from the MCLG, remember that the MCLG is the maximum level of contaminant, not the recommended level of supplement. Water that naturally has more than .7mg/L has no fluoride added to it. Most US communities do not have drinking water with naturally occurring fluoride that is far above those levels, although some do have as much as 1.0 mg/L. By comparison, ground water in mountainous and volcanic areas can have as much 50mg/L. Most rivers and lakes generally contain natural fluoride levels less than 0.5 mg/L.

As for the more political questions you ask in your second part, I cannot answer them for you - that is a matter of some debate. I can state that as a doctor I am more capable of deciding what is healthy for you than a lay man is because I can more easily understand the workings of your bodily mechanism, but doctors do not make health policy, governments do, almost always bureaucrats and functionaries who are unelected, sometimes, hopefully, advised by doctors. As a whole if it is a choice between the elected and unelected governmental bodies deciding what is good for me or not, I will go with the unelected every time. Elected officials are almost by definition not capable of dispassionately making a decision, since it will always be skewed to another agenda (mostly getting re-elected) whereas civil servants have no such pressure. They make better decisions on the whole. That is why they quietly run the country while their elected masters run around shouting and gesticulating. In my opinion, of course, and based on my close observation of government here, which is no different than the US other than the number of parties and the distribution of powers.

Aspirin added to tap water would be an ineffective mechanism to distribute it, so there would be no benefit to having it in tap water. therefore arguing that it would be better than something to lessen dental decay is ineffective.

No results supporting fluoridation of water has been as yet skewed to favour the funding source, as none were funded by chemical manufacturers. They were funded by governmental health bodies, based on the initial observation early in the 20th century or late in the 19th century that communities that had naturally high fluoride content in their water tended to have fewer dental decay problems. It also noted that communities where the natural fluoride content was above a certain levels had dental yellowing and other problems, so it was supposed that there is a certain level where it is protective above which it is not, even harmful. Studies and testing then ensued to discover the correct levels for safety and maximum effect.

I hope that has helped to answer your questions.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2015 05:48 PM by DocWils.)
05-06-2015 03:29 PM
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Mark Douglas Offline

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Post: #6
RE: fluoride and thyroid
If fluoride is in water and water is atomized in the shower then I certainly do inhale fluoridated water. Does it enter my system? I don't know but seems possible. Can you show me studies proving it does not.

I could with little effort find examples of past medical practices that turned out to be harmful. Some with absolutely horrible results! l But I'm sure you are better educated than I in this matter. I also am aware of medical practices that seem outlandish at first look are in fact beneficial. I know I feel much better after blood letting at the blood bank. If central water is a poor way to administer aspirin but is effective in reducing heart problems should governments mandate its use? If ultimately fluoridation of drinking water proofs harmful will those damaged have any recourse? I accept the risks of chlorinated water as waterborne pathogens are well documented to be harmful or fatal and contagious. . I do not accept the idea it is acceptable to mass medicate a population for the purpose of preventing dental carries. I do not concern myself with a mass outbreak of kissing transmitted dental cavities. Too-funny

Is this statement correct?

Quote: Europe

Out of a population of about three-fourths of a billion, under 14 million people in Europe receive artificially-fluoridated water. Those people are in the UK (5,797,000), Republic of Ireland (3,250,000), Spain (4,250,000), and Serbia (300,000).[4]

The first water fluoridation in Europe was in West Germany and Sweden in 1952, bringing fluoridated water to about 42,000 people. By mid-1962, about 1 million Europeans in 18 communities in 11 countries were receiving fluoridated water.[36]

Many European countries have rejected water fluoridation in general. This includes: Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Northern Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland,[37] Scotland,[38] Iceland, and Italy.[citation needed] A 2003 survey of over 500 Europeans from 16 countries concluded that "the vast majority of people opposed water fluoridation".[39]

or this
Quote:“This water treatment has never been of use in Belgium and will never be (we hope so) into the future. The main reason for that is the fundamental position of the drinking water sector that it is not its task to deliver medicinal treatment to people. This is the sole responsibility of health services.”
SOURCE: Chr. Legros, Directeur, Belgaqua, Brussels, Belgium, February 28, 2000.

In short if upon consultation with my Doctor he were to convince me I needed to be medicated with fluoride I want a dose calculated for my needs. Not randomly administered depending on my thirst of any given day.

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05-06-2015 06:45 PM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #7
RE: fluoride and thyroid
Mark, to start with let me ease your worries - fluoridated water has been in use for a very long time, in fact people have been drinking it naturally since the dawn of man. Bringing water to .7mg/L is not a problem, since most drinking water is probably naturally somewhere just under or near that number anyway, and many natural sources are over that. One reason the many countries in Europe don't fluoridate water is that in higher countries the fluoride levels in water is already at that level, so it is not necessary, and while it is interesting to quote Belgaqua, it is actual not an governmental body (it is a commercial advocacy umbrella for the three largest water suppliers in Belgium, the way they can lobby the government in a very fractured political environment - and if the government mandated they should fluoridate the water, they would. The government has not, it simply has rendered the opinion that they may if they want to - why should they if it is an added expense for no return?), nor is it more than the opinion of one former director. I have no particular care about his opinion, since it is a political one, my concern is medical truth, and to date there is no hard evidence that fluoridation at the levels recommended in the US are in any way harmful. The reason Switzerland has no water fluoridation is that instead, like MANY European lands, we add fluoride to salt instead. In fact, it is a far worse way to distribute it, since there is no way to control the salt intake of the population, but a relatively easy way to do so for water - we know what most people will drink over a day and adjust for that, but people get salt in so many things, even when they don't realise it. So you see, the fluoridation of water is the safer of the two ways to distribute it. I might point out that not only do water companies add fluoride to water in the US, but where it is naturally occurring but over the recommended levels, they must, under state laws, reduce it to safe levels.

I am uncertain how a survey of 500 people out of 15 countries could be in any way a representative sampling of public opinion, so I would discount that little snippet if I were you. It is nonsense - most people here could not care less, and they do not object to fluoridated salt, which most do consume, and far too much of it. It is a cardiologist's nightmare.

The question of governmental mandate of aspirin consumption was actually mooted recently, but there are too many factors at work as to do so, it has to be doctor's discretion (in Switzerland, cardio aspirin is only under prescription, BTW, you cannot buy it over the counter (because of the danger of over consumption or inappropriate consumption, but I think we are being a bit controlling about that) because there is a cost/benefit analysis to do - the risks (intestinal bleeding, etc) against the possible gain). And it only makes sense after a certain age anyway - a 30 year old, if he is otherwise healthy, does not need it - a 60 year man might benefit from it for his heart, a woman against stroke (don't ask - it is complex and I went into it elsewhere once on this forum, explaining the mechanisms, etc, you can look it up there). At best, anyway, the government can recommend it, which it does, and provide guidelines for physicians to follow for diagnosis and dosing levels. In fact, the government NEVER mandates medication except where the public health as a whole could be adversely effected (as in pandemics, etc, where flu shots may be mandated as an emergency measure, and even then only in certain persons at risk).

Fluoridation is not a federal mandate in the US so far as I know, but controlled by individual states, with the EPA setting maximum safe levels of contamination, and other bodies agreeing on normal usage levels. Individual states choose what standards they will adhere to, and it is up to them to enforce safe practice. This is not a federal issue, they only advise on what is not safe, and have no enforcement powers one way or another, so far as I understand.

Several studies of aerosolised shower water were done over the years, including one by one of my students (here doctor means you have to do an academic thesis, and guess who has to read all of them - muggins, that's who Tongue), and none showed any danger of increased ingestion of heavy metals or halogens from shower water mist. Not enough is ingested to make a difference. You would need to inhale litres of mist a day for years on years for it to make even a slight impact, and you don't inhale litres of mist per day. Plain and simple. You are talking about minute amounts of minute amounts (.7mg/L in normal water is heavily diluted again when aerosolised to the point that you are beginning to talk about homeopathic amounts - this is simply not a real problem in any way, it is jumping at shadows. No one is that sensitive to so little without a major allergy, and even then it is unheard of).

Dental caries remain a major public health concern in most industrialized nations, affecting 60–90% of schoolchildren and the vast majority of adults. While it is no longer so necessary to fluoridate water now as it was in 1940, due to better dental practice in industrialised nations, the health concern remains, and some regions do fluoridate water to deal with it. A doctor prescribing you to dose your water with fluoride as an adult would do nothing, as it is the minute amounts ingested over years upon years that has the actual protective effect, not a sudden adult dosage - it would take years for it to do anything.

Out of curiosity, since you live in Ohio, is your region using added fluoride or is there a naturally high level in the water? And why is this really an issue? From the medical side it is a non issue - no one has ever been able to demonstrate health problems from safe levels of fluoridation, and we now have some 120 years of data to go on, since this data has been gathered since the late 19th century, only from levels higher than the safe levels, and even then so far the only thing we see there is pitted teeth in children and brittle bones in the elderly. you are at slightly greater danger from the chlorine in the water, frankly, and immensely greater danger from air pollution and even greater danger from preprocessed foods and restaurant foods all of which add too much salt and sugar. This is simply, from a medical standpoint, a non-starter. From a political standpoint, well, that is an area I cannot debate. By nature of geography and country history, our political viewpoints are too far apart.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2015 09:13 PM by DocWils.)
05-06-2015 09:01 PM
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Mark Douglas Offline

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Post: #8
RE: fluoride and thyroid
Don't you ever sleep Doc ? LOL

I lived for many years on a municipal water system in Ohio where the natural fluoride level was 0.23 and the citizens voted against fluoridation of it's water supply. Every so often some person or group agitates to increase the fluoride level. When asked why they say to protect against dental problems. When asked to demonstrate the people served have higher rates of dental disease they cannot.

I suffer from Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Are the concerns raised here bogus? http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

My health concern is the overall chemical load.
I felt much better drinking and bathing in RO water.
I will be installing a whole house RO system as soon as I can afford it.
I have not used a fluoridated toothpaste in 20 years nor do I have dental carries. I do have a Phillips Sonicair tooth brush and dental floss. Fluoride is a chemical I do not need.
Does fluoride increase the likelihood of autoimmune diseases? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 Does it impact the kidneys? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004

We used to hike a lot in forested hilly areas. We were slim and fit and in better mental health. My wife was prescribed a statin drug for mildly elevated cholesterol levels. Now she is crippled. Her feet are damaged and can no longer hike. After stopping the statin drug she has slowly regained the ability to walk without pain for short distances. She cannot stand in one place for more than a couple of minutes without debilitating pain. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

My political concern is gvt is like Kudzu. It will strangle everything thing else if not pruned regularly. The cost of a CPAP machine and health-care in general is way out of proportion due to gvt melding. A CPAP machine could cost $100USD were it sold in a more reasonable financial environment. How many people suffer terribly because the cannot afford a CPAPA machine? Just as the EU is micromanaging everything it can get it's hands on. Just as the USA has become the United States of Swat.

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05-07-2015 10:50 AM
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DocWils Offline

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Post: #9
RE: fluoride and thyroid
(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  Don't you ever sleep Doc ? LOL

Not when I am on call at the hospital.

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  I lived for many years on a municipal water system in Ohio where the natural fluoride level was 0.23 and the citizens voted against fluoridation of it's water supply. Every so often some person or group agitates to increase the fluoride level. When asked why they say to protect against dental problems. When asked to demonstrate the people served have higher rates of dental disease they cannot.

I don't see any strong benefit from increasing fluoridation to .7mg/L since you mostly use fluoridated toothpastes, but not strong medical objection to those levels either.
(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  I suffer from Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Sorry to hear that. real bugger, that one.

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  Are the concerns raised here bogus? http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

Not bogus, just not founded in any real fact as of yet - the Chinese studies were looked at here as well and we found them wanting for a variety of reasons, not least because their findings ignored other, rather brutal environmental factors besides fluoride, such as a rather high lead exposure, etc., that were noted later in follow up studies. What you have right now are mostly suppositions, and in some case risk adverse reactions, which is fine, just be aware that the article really does not reflect a hard, peer reviewed process. The Scientific World Journal, currently published by Cairo-based Hindawi Publishing Corporation covers virtually all scientific fields and imposes an article processing charge of $1,000 for each accepted article. Peer review is not rigorous and there have been critiques of their methods by legitimate scientific journals of record, and they will not be listed in the 2015 Journal Citation Reports any more because of "anomalous citation patterns", nor were they in 2014. That is a very big thing in the scientific world.

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  My health concern is the overall chemical load.
I felt much better drinking and bathing in RO water.
I will be installing a whole house RO system as soon as I can afford it.
I have not used a fluoridated toothpaste in 20 years nor do I have dental carries. I do have a Phillips Sonicair tooth brush and dental floss. Fluoride is a chemical I do not need.

Some people claim that water processed via Reverse Osmosis makes them feel better - certainly it is purer than tap water, but if it is healthier is a good question. No reliable studies exist, and all evidence is anecdotal, but I will certainly be interested in how you find it. And how it tastes.

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  Does fluoride increase the likelihood of autoimmune diseases? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 Does it impact the kidneys? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004

These studies are not really helpful, I am afraid, they are in vitro and rat studies that use near toxic and post toxic levels. Humans react differently, and the levels the rats are exposed to in order to get a timely result don't really reflect real world human exposure. (I asked a colleague in the Path lab to look the articles over and that is his opinion, which I trust)

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  We used to hike a lot in forested hilly areas. We were slim and fit and in better mental health. My wife was prescribed a statin drug for mildly elevated cholesterol levels. Now she is crippled. Her feet are damaged and can no longer hike. After stopping the statin drug she has slowly regained the ability to walk without pain for short distances. She cannot stand in one place for more than a couple of minutes without debilitating pain. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I am sorry to hear that - we try to avoid statins here unless necessary (I went on them myself for a year, I did not like them and soon as I could I got off them, but that said, via diet and exercise my cholesterol had dropped anyway to the 5% risk level, so I could happily get off them). Statins are very broad as a category and some work better for certain things than others, and some react differently to one type than another and it is a bit of a crap shoot, as with all medications - you don't know how one person out of ten thousand may react, thanks to us all being so different. I am deeply sorry for your wife's experience. I hope that she fully recovers and can again pursue her exercise with joy and free of pain. Best way to keep the cholesterol down anyway. Get the heart pumping. Works wonder. Diet is less a factor than most people think, we are learning.

(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  My political concern is gvt is like Kudzu. It will strangle everything thing else if not pruned regularly.
No argument there. True of most things, I find.
(05-07-2015 10:50 AM)Mark Douglas Wrote:  The cost of a CPAP machine and health-care in general is way out of proportion due to gvt melding. A CPAP machine could cost $100USD were it sold in a more reasonable financial environment. How many people suffer terribly because the cannot afford a CPAPA machine? J

Not sure about that - there are real costs in making such a device, and tons of R&D as well that has to ploughed back into the sale price - material costs for medical grade devices are high, much higher than consumer devices, and that has nothing to do with government meddling. In fact, in order to get the prices down to what you want, the government would HAVE to meddle - instead of allow the free market that currently exists. If anything, you should be complaining that the government is not getting involved enough in health care manufacturing to get the prices down. What you are experiencing is capitalism at it's finest, if there is such a thing.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2015 11:31 AM by DocWils.)
05-07-2015 11:30 AM
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Posts: 513
Joined: Apr 2015

Machine: Sys 1 (60) RemStar BiPAP Auto with Bi-Flex 760P Auto Bi-Level (Variabl
Mask Type: Nasal mask
Mask Make & Model: PR Wisp
Humidifier: PR Sys One heated
CPAP Pressure: RiseTime 3 Fxd E-9.0 / I-11.5
CPAP Software: SleepyHead EncoreBasic

Other Comments: Hashimoto's thyroiditis.

Sex: Male
Location: SW Ohio

Post: #10
RE: fluoride and thyroid
Herr Doktor first of all I thank you for your time and commentary. That is about as far as mine kinder Deutsch goes now days. Wink If I am with people speaking Deutsch for any length of time it returns but I have little access to it otherwise. Upon reflection I am angry because for years I have had a good idea where some of my health issues arose yet I could not find a doctor until of late who actually listen to his patients. I have lived in this body for over 6 decades and have a pretty good idea when something is not right. Current primary care provider was a ME before becoming an MD. If I bring him the data he is willing to consider my thoughts. The empirical data for many years indicates I have suffered from hypothyroidism. In this country the TSH test is the gold standard and heaven help you if you present with the classic symptoms of hypothyroidism yet the TSH "number" does not agree. Guess what? I was right and how much have I and the people who love me have suffered due to this pigheaded attitude re TSH?

I lived on RO water for years living on a sailboat and desert tropical islands. I love the non-taste if you will. Tea, coffee, etc all taste better if you start with water of high purity.

The doctor who treated me from birth until my forties said I had some of the best cholesterol numbers he had ever seen and overall cardiovascular health. In that regard I am genetically blessed. My diet leaves something to be desired.. I have noticed my carb cravings are receding with CPAP therapy.

Do to my profession I have far wider exposure to life than most. Much of which I am prohibited from discussing. I can say I have spent thousands of hours working in hospitals, nursing homes, drug manufacturing facilities, federal and military reservations, among others and as an invisible elf who makes the wheels go around I hear and see a lot. Do you know the names of the people who maintain the physical plant in which you work and do you ever discuss things when they are around to overhear?

I assure you I am not experiencing capitalism in it's finest or otherwise. US Gvt is involved with regulating everything very often to my detriment. Especially in medical care. If medical grade materials are much more expensive I would first ask why? This entire discussion was prompted by the USGvt reducing it's recommended fluoridations levels. Perhaps in time this new level will be prove to have unintended consequences.

Again I thank you for your time and wisdom and will let this be.

I use my PAP machine nightly and I feel great!
Updated: Philips Respironics System One (60 Series)
RemStar BiPAP Auto with Bi-FlexModel 760P -
Rise Time x3 Fixed Bi-Level EPAP 9.0 IPAP 11.5 (cmH2O)
05-07-2015 12:45 PM
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