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what einstein said
#1
not everything you measure matters
not everything that matters can be measured

and arent most of our RAD/sleepyhead numbers just surrogates and even suppositions about what really happens 

wouldn't the spo2 levels be one of the most important things that has to be measured to get meaningful results

all the xHI numbers for mild serious etc are all somewhat arbitrary based on averages that nobody is 

isnt O2 minimum  more important than some number of HIs ?

isn't max heart rate a lot more important than number of apneas 

is there anything else we should be measuring
#2
All models are wrong. Some models are useful. The numbers from the PAP machine are useful and easy. 

Best? I think the full polysomnography is probably the best, but the numbers may be unreliable if you can't sleep with the equipment on.

O2 and HR are of course super important but O2 is hard to measure - the consumer level pulse Ox monitors are only mostly accurate, and O2 is only one part of the picture. Actual sleep quality is harder to measure, and unless you have good O2 AND good sleep, you are only partially successful.
#3
The time spent in each sleep phase is very important to proper rest, recovery, memory, and general well being.


#4
(05-14-2017, 03:52 PM)TASmart Wrote: The time spent in each sleep phase is very important to proper rest, recovery, memory, and general well being.

all well and good
and we measure surrogates that indicate data reflecting that

my personal concern is low O2 levels more than AHIs
but those others are useful to know too
#5
(05-14-2017, 03:17 PM)Aeolus Wrote: All models are wrong. Some models are useful. The numbers from the PAP machine are useful and easy. 

Best? I think the full polysomnography is probably the best, but the numbers may be unreliable if you can't sleep with the equipment on.

O2 and HR are of course super important but O2 is hard to measure - the consumer level pulse Ox monitors are only mostly accurate, and O2 is only one part of the picture. Actual sleep quality is harder to measure, and unless you have good O2 AND good sleep, you are only partially successful.

PSG has the most data.  But sleeping in a strange bed with strange pillows at hours that are convenient to them for only one night is barely indicative not conclusive.

I would expect a good spo2 meter attaching to the RAD 

Low O2 is dangerous for sure.
But why dont we measure that at home as a given to prove that the apneas and hypopneas are not significant.

so many seconds is an arbitrary cut off that works for an averag person.
we are all different.

measuring our actual O2 has to be better than some AHI rate.
#6
(05-14-2017, 01:19 PM)xxyzx Wrote: isnt O2 minimum  more important than some number of HIs ?

isn't max heart rate a lot more important than number of apneas 

is there anything else we should be measuring

I think the answer to questions 1 and 2 is "probably not" because for *most* people the level of oxygen and the rate of heartbeat are determined by apneas.  More apneas generally means lower O2 levels and higher heart rates.

Not true for everyone.  I am an exception so far as O2 levels are concerned, for instance.  Even though my AHI was very low my O2 levels still stayed too low, so I needed added O2 while sleeping.

But in general, for most people, I think AHI will be strongly inversely correlated with O2 levels,  i.e. the lower your AHI the more oxygen you will get in your blood.  If you are different an overnight oxymetry with the CPAP on all night will show it.

The answer to question three is obviously "yes", but the trick is to know what measurements are important and what aren't.  And there is only so much stuff you can measure.  I mean I imagine we'd get lots of great and useful data if we all slept with electrodes pasted to our scalps every night.  Not gonna' happen though, is it?
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Your brain is not the boss.



#7
(05-14-2017, 06:38 PM)eseedhouse Wrote:
(05-14-2017, 01:19 PM)xxyzx Wrote: isnt O2 minimum  more important than some number of HIs ?

isn't max heart rate a lot more important than number of apneas 

is there anything else we should be measuring

I think the answer to questions 1 and 2 is "probably not" because for *most* people the level of oxygen and the rate of heartbeat are determined by apneas.  More apneas generally means lower O2 levels and higher heart rates.

Not true for everyone.  I am an exception so far as O2 levels are concerned, for instance.  Even though my AHI was very low my O2 levels still stayed too low, so I needed added O2 while sleeping.

But in general, for most people, I think AHI will be strongly inversely correlated with O2 levels,  i.e. the lower your AHI the more oxygen you will get in your blood.  If you are different an overnight oxymetry with the CPAP on all night will show it.

The answer to question three is obviously "yes", but the trick is to know what measurements are important and what aren't.  And there is only so much stuff you can measure.  I mean I imagine we'd get lots of great and useful data if we all slept with electrodes pasted to our scalps every night.  Not gonna' happen though, is it?

i agree with correlation
some even strongly

but imho the actual O2 min is vital information

apneas can be >10 seconds
or > 10 minutes
> 10 hours you are probably dead

so merely having an index based on that arbitrarily round number of time is not going to be the best statistic to use
#8
(05-14-2017, 08:45 PM)xxyzx Wrote: apneas can be >10 seconds
or > 10 minutes
> 10 hours you are probably dead

so merely having an index based on that arbitrarily round number of time is not going to be the best statistic to use

So di you learn that apneas can vary in length from Einstein? Huhsign

#9
(05-15-2017, 01:09 PM)Melman Wrote:
(05-14-2017, 08:45 PM)xxyzx Wrote: apneas can be >10 seconds
or > 10 minutes
> 10 hours you are probably dead

so merely having an index based on that arbitrarily round number of time is not going to be the best statistic to use

So di you learn that apneas can vary in length from Einstein? Huhsign

i learned the meaning of   '  >  '   in 3rd grade


#10
(05-14-2017, 08:45 PM)xxyzx Wrote: i agree with correlation
some even strongly

but imho the actual O2 min is vital information

apneas can be >10 seconds
or > 10 minutes
> 10 hours you are probably dead

Well, but you don't need an oxymeter to tell you how long your apneas are.  Just use sleepyhead and you get all that information.

O2 levels may be important, but absent some other underlying condition you can get all you need to know from a modern *PAP machine.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Your brain is not the boss.



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