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would like to do a open source mask
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SleepWrangler Offline

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Post: #21
RE: would like to do a open source mask
(04-06-2014 01:43 AM)space45 Wrote:  ok so this is cool, the open source thing is all about parts, each mold is for one part, and anyone involved this open source mask thing is only making mask parts so one could mass product mask parts at home and sell them, cool

I like this idea a lot. When I budgeted CPAP supplies over the life of the machine it was x10 the initial outlay of funds. If someone were to cast cushions and sell in bulk for popular masks that would be a good deal.

You still have to think about patent protection where there are likely utility patents in place.

I'm not keen on pouring my own masks because I already have enough hobbies and let's face it (pun intended) acquiring the skill to be efficient with materials is not free and is very messy. At some point 3D scanning at home will be easy and cheap. Offering custom cushions manufactured using these tools would be excellent. Technology is still a ways away but I've seen guys using Blender and Microsoft Kinect do some really neat stuff.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 09:24 AM by SleepWrangler.)
04-06-2014 09:20 AM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #22
RE: would like to do a open source mask
only guys making master molds, or custom molds need the high end machines and skills, the mask making its self is a easy enough do, it can be messy and there is a learning curve, but it is no biggie

go to youtube and search "casting plastic parts" and you will see it is not all that bad, the end user only need a mold and casting material and a few basic simple tools.
yes some will do this and sell them on the net, so yes there should be plenty of inexpensive mask parts for sale.

the trick will be to get some sort of standard in place so one hard section from one person will fit a soft section from another person and straps and what ever from others will needs to all work together and yet not limit customization. that maybe the trick part of all this



(04-06-2014 09:20 AM)SleepWrangler Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 01:43 AM)space45 Wrote:  ok so this is cool, the open source thing is all about parts, each mold is for one part, and anyone involved this open source mask thing is only making mask parts so one could mass product mask parts at home and sell them, cool

I like this idea a lot. When I budgeted CPAP supplies over the life of the machine it was x10 the initial outlay of funds. If someone were to cast cushions and sell in bulk for popular masks that would be a good deal.

You still have to think about patent protection where there are likely utility patents in place.

I'm not keen on pouring my own masks because I already have enough hobbies and let's face it (pun intended) acquiring the skill to be efficient with materials is not free and is very messy. At some point 3D scanning at home will be easy and cheap. Offering custom cushions manufactured using these tools would be excellent. Technology is still a ways away but I've seen guys using Blender and Microsoft Kinect do some really neat stuff.
04-06-2014 10:35 AM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #23
RE: would like to do a open source mask
I see some major legal hurdles you'd have to overcome here...

Here in the U.S., CPAP masks are considered Durable Medical Equipment by the FDA. Yes, licensed DMEs can get away with selling the individual parts without a prescription. But they still must be sold or distributed by licensed DME (as in licensed by the government) whether they're selling complete masks or even mask parts.

Also: The manufacture of CPAP masks and parts is regulated by the FDA. If you're encouraging and empowering patients to manufacture their own CPAP masks or parts, you're going to eventually have the FDA come knocking on your door, since they regulate both the manufacture and distribution of such items to insure (as far as the FDA is concerned) "public safety".

Personally, I say more power to you... nothing would please me more than to see such an effort be successful and take a larger market share away from CPAP mask manufacturers. However, that said, you really need to get a competent medical equipment attorney involved before you go to all the effort. Otherwise you'll be spending all sorts of money and having the FDA shut you down shortly after you get started.

Here in the U.S. you'd most likely need an official ruling by the FDA stating that 3-D printing and distribution of CPAP mask molds does not come under the regulatory authority of the FDA. You'll also be fighting against the vast resources of the existing multi-billion dollar CPAP manufacturing industry who is likely to lobby extensively to make sure that their market share is not subverted. Good luck doing all that without a very good (and expensive) lawyer. Cool

I'm not trying to throw water on the concept, just trying to inject some cold, hard practical realities into the discussion.

Sometimes in the "patient empowerment" movement, we have to pick our battles, and there are other efforts that might be a more effective use of our time. I personally think that this particular course of action will only lead to major resistance from an enormous multi-national, billion-dollar CPAP industry who would love to get you bogged down with massive amounts of regulatory bureaucracy. But hey, it's your time and effort, and maybe I'm completely wrong - that has happened before, after all. Too-funny

As always, just my opinion. Coffee

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.

04-06-2014 06:34 PM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #24
RE: would like to do a open source mask
hello supersleeper

it is always better to know what your up against BEFORE you have to deal with it after the big truck has hit you then run you over a few time for good measure.

so the empowerment this are you talking about? is there something going on I may like to know about? do I need a secret hand shack thing to get more info or what?
would like to hear more about this empowerment deal if possible.

if I sell the molds to make the molds. can they really do much? all I would do is empower other to make a mold of something that then could make the part. to go after me would be a real stretch. I am not even selling something that could make the part, just something to make the part that could be used to make the part. if that makes sense, but I hear you, the power guys do not have to be even close to right or have any case at all to hit you hard and cost you a fortune to prove your right. that is why most hate capitalism and capitalists. shame no one looks to confirm what capitalism really is.
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 07:12 PM by space45.)
04-06-2014 07:11 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #25
RE: would like to do a open source mask
We use the term "Patient Empowerment" around here to refer to patients taking a more active role in their own sleep apnea treatment via the dissemination of knowledge-- sometimes using the so-called "secrets" of adjusting pressures using the "Clinician Setup Mode" and other settings on CPAP machines, or using software to analyze and adjust our own treatment, or distributing the "Clinician Manuals" to patients which offer instructions primarily intended for clinicians. Such things are often viewed by misinformed people as the dominion of "trained health care professionals".

Coffee

SuperSleeper
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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.

04-06-2014 07:22 PM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #26
RE: would like to do a open source mask
wow a certified member of the establishment I have been beating on relentlessly. nothing personally, just venting some frustrations with the system and the powers that think they know best as well as the ones that push to get things passed or set in stone thats sole purpose is the protect there chunk of the pie and push others out.

no thought of the patients that have to deal with the limits they impose solely for their own profits, or for helping to find solutions to over come short comings.

BTW thanks for the help, you are one of the good guys, even if your in their camp...lol

must be hard some times to be where you are, you obviously care, so you have a hart, it must be a rough ride at times, or is that a over dramafiction of how thing are?
maybe doing what you do with manuals and stuff is all that can be done at your end, your doing what is right as best as you can, no drama here

would love to chat with you to get a better understanding of the inner working of this industry if your up to it, or willing and have the time
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2014 07:58 PM by space45.)
04-06-2014 07:38 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #27
RE: would like to do a open source mask
(04-06-2014 07:38 PM)space45 Wrote:  wow a certified member of the establishment I have been beating on relentlessly.

Wow, now that's one I haven't heard yet. Not sure where you got that idea. I'm hardly a member of "the establishment" and have (along with a lot of our staff and long time members) been at odds with the 'medical mafia' for years now... maybe you should read some of my posts around here in detail, like those in this thread on an "open source forum" or in this one on patients taking a more active role in their own treatment.

Quote:BTW thanks for the help, you are one of the good guys, even if your in their camp...lol

Sorry, again, I'm not "in their camp" at all. I just pointed out some problems that you'll have to overcome if you choose to manufacture the parts to make CPAP masks, that's all. I was being realistic in pointing out the power behind the medical mafia, and was trying to bring some degree of realism to this thread.

Trust me, Apnea Board has been on the receiving end of legal threats by a major CPAP manufacturer for distributing their copyrighted CPAP Clinician Manuals, and it wasn't fun. "In their camp"? Hardly.

Smile

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.

04-06-2014 08:31 PM
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space45 Offline

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Post: #28
RE: would like to do a open source mask
very sorry, my bad

I read into your reply that you were certified, I reread it and have no idea how I got that idea in the first place. must of been the we or something, not sure, but my greatest apology for insinuating your one of them or in their camp, thought you were maybe a inside man or something, never really one of them.

I hear you on the law suet, so did you win?, guess so if your still doing it.

talk about feeling bad, I am really sorry for that. well glad to find a fellow crusader... would that be OK to say?
also what do you think about a open source sleep lab? would you want to play with one as well? would that get one into hot water? I just watch something where a large oil and gas company was sued by the EPA 3 weeks after the main man talked to Obama about fracking and how it would help the US become energy independent. some EPA guy came and found ONE dead bird near a tailings pond, ONE, with no evidence whats so even that the bird really did die from the pond. anyways, the EPA fought so hard and dirty that it took a fortune and almost bankrupted the 14th largest energy company in the US over 1 little bird. when it was said and done the court through it out and said that the law the EPA was trying to charge the company with braking would involve every building, car, plane and ANY other thing the has killed a bird be made illegal and gotten rid of. almost bankrupting a LARGE company for no reason at all other then to prove a point. and some wonder why others rant and rave.
anyway hope you forgive my misconception of your position in the machine of the medical mafia
take care
stan
04-06-2014 08:58 PM
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SuperSleeper Offline

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Post: #29
RE: would like to do a open source mask
No problem, Stan. This is a discussion forum, after all. It was almost humorous that someone thought me to be an "insider" in the medical mafia, so I had to respond. Too-funny

Sorry for interrupting your thread... feel free to carry on the open source mask discussion.

Sleep-well

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INFORMATION ON APNEA BOARD FORUMS OR ON APNEABOARD.COM SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS MEDICAL ADVICE. ALWAYS SEEK THE ADVICE OF A PHYSICIAN BEFORE SEEKING TREATMENT FOR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, INCLUDING SLEEP APNEA. INFORMATION POSTED ON THE APNEA BOARD WEB SITE AND FORUMS ARE PERSONAL OPINION ONLY AND NOT NECESSARILY A STATEMENT OF FACT.

04-06-2014 09:04 PM
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bwexler Offline

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Post: #30
RE: would like to do a open source mask
I like your basic premis, but question how many hose heads would be remotely cabable of casting there own custom mask.
It has been nearly 50 years since I built molds or ran plastic injection machines, so I am way out of date but I don't see it as a simple home brew process.

What I do like about your idea, and perhaps expanding on it a bit:
Do a 3D laser scan of someones face.
select a mask style
use a 3D printer to create the custom fit mask for that person.

The men in black would certainly be watching. The use of the 3D laser scanner could cause loss of sight if improperly used.
Although the equipment needed is readily available, it is not commonly in household use yet. I suspect it will be several years beforeit is common.
I have seen some very intricate items come off of a 3D printer so I know it will be practical some day.

Another big obstacle is the patents held by the big boys. Unless you came up with some very unique designs they would have their lawyers all over you.
04-06-2014 10:20 PM
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