Caffeine (as in coffee and more); age pros and cons; Norbert Weiner

[2SleepBetta]

I post this over-my-head read as a strong-coffee lover and drinker who deems his Vauto-VPAP treated OSA and flow limitations as mostly well treated: no complaints about sleep latency and quality thanks to Resmed and ApneaBoard's help. But I do enjoy a cup or two when I get up and one a few hours before hosing up. Peet's coffee satisfies the urge.

Possibly wrong, my perception is that my dreaming indications of restorative REM sleep have nearly vanished in recent years as I near age 86. Accordingly, this study caught my attention. It applies more to the young and, probably, the middle aged, except for implications regarding hypertension and alzheimers. The latter touches on my committing  more mindless errors and having to go back, to where I thought to go get an item from another room, to recall what it was. (See also *)



Deed - Attribution 4.0 International - Creative Commons

Caffeine induces age-dependent increases in brain complexity and criticality during sleep

Cite and source: https://rdcu.be/eoS4h

Abstract
Caffeine is the most widely consumed psychoactive stimulant worldwide. Yet important gaps persist in understanding its effects on the brain, especially during sleep. We analyzed sleep electroencephalography (EEG) in 40 subjects, contrasting 200 mg of caffeine against a placebo condition, utilizing inferential statistics and machine learning. We found that caffeine ingestion led to an increase in brain complexity, a widespread flattening of the power spectrum’s 1/f-like slope, and a reduction in long-range temporal correlations. Being most prominent during non-rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep, these results suggest that caffeine shifts the brain towards a critical regime and more diverse neural dynamics. Interestingly, this was more pronounced in younger adults (20–27 years) compared to middle-aged participants (41–58 years) during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, while no significant age effects were observed during NREM. Interpreting these data in the light of modeling and empirical work on EEG-derived measures of excitation-inhibition balance suggests that caffeine promotes a shift in brain dynamics towards increased neural excitation and closer proximity to a critical regime, particularly during NREM sleep.

Excerpt: Page 8 of pdf document
Higher entropy in neural signals during sleep has been associated with enhanced information integration and dynamic adaptability, processes that are critical for cognitive functions reliant on sleep, such as optimal neural communication and adaptive information processing. The caffeine-induced increase in EEG entropy during sleep may therefore reflect changes to these processes, potentially impacting the brain’s ability to efficiently process and integrate information across different neural states. As the caffeine-induced increase of brain entropy was most pronounced in NREM, the stage known to exhibit low brain entropy, it is tempting to associate the effect of caffeine with a deterioration of sleep quality. Although increased brain entropy during sleep has been linked to hypertension55 and early-stage Alzheimer’s disease56, further investigation is needed to elucidate the impact of pharmacologically induced alterations in sleep brain entropy and their implications for sleep-dependent cognitive functions.

(My emphases added)

* Upon noting my concern about forgetting, a quotation I heard about Norbert Weiner came to mind. Something like his ending a sidewalk encounter and conversation like this: "Which way was I going before we spoke? To or from that building?"

One of the greatest mathematicians, Weiner initiated the terms and was a writer about cybernetics and cyborgs. Considering his apex cognitive level paired with absentmindedness, I can hope more frequent memory lapses won't indicate too much acceleration in the scaling down of my remaining cognition and memory. 

The Original Absent-Minded Professor | MIT Technology Review

"The Greatest Mathematician in the World": Norbert Wiener Stories on JSTOR

Computer Pioneers - Norbert Wiener

And his "sidewalk"    question from one of the linked items: 

"Fano gives credence to some of the famous anecdotes about Wiener’s absentmindedness: the time he reported the theft of his car to the police, only to discover that he had driven it to Providence for a talk and taken the train back; the conversation in an MIT hallway that he concluded by asking his interlocutor which way he had been heading when he stopped to chat, greeting the answer with “Good! That means I’ve already had lunch.”

A quick scan at posting showed I missed the significance of "and a reduction in long-range temporal correlations" v. Alzheimer's - that phrase in the abstract that begs more reading and questions.

[super7pilot]

Why do this people always speak in "code" and simply just say if Caffeine does or does not keep you awake and if it does or does not make you a dumb*ss.

[SarcasticDave94]

That doesn't sound very scientific that way. One may actually understand what they're meaning and not need to get article 5 to help understand the first 4.

[2SleepBetta]

@Super7Pilot
I interpret your surprising*, “Why do this people always speak in "code" and simply just say if Caffeine does or does not keep you awake and if it does or does not make you a dumb*ss.” as follows: "Why do these people always speak in "code" and not simply just say if Caffeine does or does not keep you awake . . . ."

First, I am the one at fault, if anyone. The researchers are reporting to their medical peers at their level; I posted their report of findings. Elsewhere in theoretical physics at that level such reports won’t open by stating it is gravity that causes apples to fall to the ground. The opening paragraph summarizes the report for busy peers who are scanning for technical news to read. 

The report opening section is followed by three helpful introductory paragraphs with details nearer our background level. 

Not a coffee afficianado, though fussy about it, I am a coffee addict, and was, like most of us, partly aware of both its benefits and detrimental effects as stated in the lower half of page 1. Also data driven, I want to know, as many here do, how much of my sleep quality, its restorative effects, am I foregoing with my coffee habit and other sleep hygiene matters. I can and do make  adjustments according to my best—but only partially—informed weighting of perceived tradeoffs. (My reason for avoiding the covid shots and having both prescribed pills and animal grade liquid Ivermectin at hand.)

My OP was intended to deal with caffeine in my coffee, memory matters and my sense of reduced dreaming, which may indicate insufficient REM and deep sleep. For a time, I used the Dreem 2 EEG-like headband and found it helpful in assessing sleep stages, but overrated (unimpressive correlation with flow rate, heart rate and motion changes as presented by OSCAR).

The unstricken flow of the following clip from the third paragraph was and is key for me.

As a psychostimulant and an adenosine antagonist, caffeine reduces natural homeostatic sleep pressure [desire to sleep] by binding to adenosine receptors, thereby inducing afeeling of higher alertness and invigoration20. Adenosine, which is crucial for brain homeostasis, has been shown to mediate permeability of the blood-brain barrier (BBB) by binding to A1 and A2 adenosine receptors21,22. Activation of these receptors leads to increased permeability of the BBB, allowing transport of macromolecules like dextransand β-amyloid antibodies into murine [mouse] brains21. Hence, because it is an adenosine antagonist, caffeine is likely to interfere with BBB permeability rhythms during sleep. Despite encouraging progress, the mechanisms by which caffeine alters brain dynamics during sleep remain poorly understood. Beyond its direct effects on adenosine signaling, caffeine triggers a cascade of downstream effects on other neurotransmitter systems, including enhanced dopamine and norepinephrine release, increased acetylcholine availability and modulation of GABAergic and glutamatergic transmission20. These complex interactions  between different neurotransmitter systems likely contribute to caffeine’s diverse effects on brain function and sleep architecture.

I gotta face it. Time to do my first real coffee and caffeine fast, see if I can detect any change. How long to find out? Up to a month? Yes, it's time to quit being a dumb*ss. May my dreaming resume and flow and respiratory rates become less brushy.

Very much related but apart from this, there are a lot of relevant and interesting books and online pieces on criticality, brain criticality and self-organizing criticality including criticality of the kind that makes avalanches, that motivates one step on the gas to beat the oncoming train or that can cause one to say "I did not have sex with that woman". 

Before thinking of those recent reads, I thought of how our lives' homeostases are like a spinning tops that forgive minor disturbances of rates and axes of spin. Further, we college math majors were sometimes taunted with "you guys and philosophy students argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". Well, I think our top-like lives, mine for sure, spins on the point of a pin: what have I done with the Gospel and Jesus Christ after what he has done for this stumbling Christian?  What are the essentials of the gospel message? | GotQuestions.org


*Reference, super7pilot, to your outstanding post  with this comment ". . .  we should be also looking to a holistic approach to our therapy. And by holistic, I do not mean naturopathy type stuff. Just a whole body approach to sleep and what can effect it.

[super7pilot]

Not to worry 2sleep.

It comes from my dislike of legalese when a politician talks for 20 minutes.

And when all those 50 dollar words are translated. I find that they had just called me an a**hole’?

[2farfromshore]

Sensible moderation. Done.

[super7pilot]

2sleep, Today is my second one without coffee.

As a general rule though. I have two 14 once cups of wide awake drip coffee. But do not drink coffee after 11am-12noon. And I hit the rack at about 10-10:30pm (ish)

About 3-4 yrs ago. before pap therapy. We were in our motor home at an Army post in Yuma, Az (Yuma Proving Grounds) And I decided to try CBD oil pills to help me relax and sleep. It certainly worked and I very much remember having dreams and vivid ones at that. Not bad dreams. Prior to those pills I didn't remember having dreams or just wasn't able to recall the dreams I had.

I stopped those pills as anything to do with the canabis craze is over priced, the quality and dose amounts are suspect and the claims about what it can do seem to be rather over the top. I heard it can clear up a cloudy day and make Roses smell better.

As for furthering the techno speak I spoke of. Might be a good subject for an off topic thread.

[super7pilot]

Had a chat with My PT Dr. Who I know from our photography club. I asked him about caffeine today. He mentioned that the half life of it in our bodies is 6 hrs. So if you have your last cup at noon. You will still have 25% of it in your system at midnight. So it needs to be an early AM breakfast drink "if" it bothers your sleep.

[2SleepBetta]

As indicated in his earlier post to this thread, super7pilot posted the following to start a thread focused on techno-speak in a different free ranging off topic forum. He likely did not want to border on hijacking this thread on coffee. My posting of this is to encourage readers to press for explanations they can understand from their sleep care provider. 

Then get this thread back to such reasons as have convinced me to reduce my caffeine intake, for the benefit of more restful sleep, despite recently found contrary information.

My interpolations in super7pilots post are italicized and added emphasiss is in bold font. On the whole, I agree with much in his post as it does apply to the worst techno-babble I’ve experienced.
 
Super7pilot: “is techno speak absolutely neccesary?”

“I bring this up as a result of the discussion about coffee in the main forum. Where I posted my thoughts on techno babble.

“The problem started a LONG, LONG time ago. So I don't fault the modern scientific community for keeping up the practice, because if a modern scientist dared issue a study in plain English. They would be laughed out of the lab office or loose their job.  

“I was schooled in electronics and worked on ICBM guidance and control systems and also used a survey scope to tell the missile where it was on earth. Not once did I have to speak to my fellow missileer's in techno babble. Why? Because they already knew what a resistor or capacitor was and how a missile was aligned. And it was thus quite unnecessary to expound on the minutia detail of what those things do by talking in code.”

[i]I expect that researchers similarly use brief jargon when speaking among their specialty peers. But when reporting findings to the wider medical world, science demands more clarity, especially for breakthroughs which beg repeatability and proof. Further, standardized terms ease translations to extend reach of research results. More yet, and cynically, many if not all scientists covet publication and citations of their work by others and their field’s journals.[/i]

[i]An attachment indicates that the Oxford English Dictionary acknowledges only the existence of the word “missileer , Neither Websters nor the Cambridge dictionary define it. I thought usage would bare checking and did only those three online checks and did not pursue the OED indication because it was behind a pay wall. I take note of all these matters, knowing my too-wordy and other struggles to communicate. Most who have specialized for a time somewhere slip.[/i]

“To this end. I was at my Dr's office and asked him if it was really necessary to do all the Latin phrases in medicine or was it just the old standard set long ago to elevate themselves above the average person. He laughed and said it was the later. He said there is no reason to call a heart attack a myocardial infarction, other than to sound as smart as possible.

“And of course politicians (98% who are lawyers) make understanding and defending one's self from our legal system shrouded in purposely complex legalese and thus have to hire them to navigate it. 

“Which sets up the problem of a politician/lawyer smiling at you and shaking your hand. You then go home thinking. Gee they sure were nice. Then when you do a deep dive to decipher the words they used. You are shocked and mad as heck to find out they were calling you a scumbag in legalese.    

“And Dr's as well can do the shock and awe with nasty deadly sounding names to convince you to have that extra cost test on that thing they called a Ecchymosis. (bruise)”

My and my wife's experience-in California, no less, as backup lay-care providers for four successive elders- differs, but we  have had occasions when I've unabashedly asked for or looked up street level definitions of one or more terms used by a technician or doctor of whatever. 

End of super7pilot’s post here as he posted elsewhere

Back to this thread about coffee: First, I should have spelled Norbert Wiener's name correctly in post #1 as I have done here.

Contrary indications from 2023 research in the Netherlands:
 
Link: The Association between Caffeine Consumption from Coffee and Tea and Sleep Health in Male and Female Older Adults: A Cross-Sectional Study - PMC

Conclusion: Community-dwelling older females who did not consume caffeine reported more sleep disturbances and had higher odds of short sleep duration (<7 h/day) compared to females who did consume caffeine. In older males, no association was found between caffeine consumption and sleep health. The association found in older females may reflect reverse causation, suggesting that females may have different motivations for discontinuing caffeine use than males. In both sexes, there was no association between higher caffeine consumption and sleep health.