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A idea for a new PAP machine
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space45 Offline

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Post: #11
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
way ahead of you on that one, printing the hard plastic part would be easy, and through trial and error one could tweak models that would be downloadable from the net for a better fit, but that would require the programs and the know how to use then to tweak the model and then slice and print.

there is software for free that can do it but would need a learning curve, 3D scans of your face would also need 3D modeling software and even more know how to get it to work right. then there is the soft bits of the mask, that would be the big challenge and I am working on that part, universal molded parts of several different sizes and types that all of one size would fit a mask print so one could cheaply try different soft bits in your printed mask. maybe something like that. the advantage is if your a nose leaker you can print a mask with wider or narrower nose section, or longer or shorter, or expand or shrink the mouth section if that is the problem, as long as the over all length of the groove for the soft part matches the over all length of the soft part so it will nicely fit into the printed hard mask groove it would give a large amount of option to try for that perfect fit and a good price for replacement soft parts, or a new print of the hard section if needed.

one could go nuts designing new masks and optional things/ parts for a mask or even upgrades/ changes to existing masks moving binding points or giving them different quick connects or what ever you like. the sky is the limit with the things that can be done to make life better for the CPAP user, or anyone for that matter.

simple maybe out of reach right now, but guys with printers and the know how could mod and print new masks based on input from the user, x model mask with 3 mm narrower or wider nose. so through some trial and error you could get a better working fit. that maybe the way to go. you may end up with some unusable mask parts but you should end up with the perfect mask for you as well.

(04-03-2014 05:15 PM)ThatOtherGuy Wrote:  I have a better idea for you which I was thinking of the other day and happy to give it to you since I have no way of making it happen personally.

Work out a way of using a 3D printer to make customisable face masks. Not sure how you would get the facial mold other than taking a cast or maybe using some laser 3D scanner thingy. But once you have the cast/scan, unless something drastically changes you have it for life. The 3D printer and software can then print a custom mask to which you fit the hose coupler, straps and a universal silicone cushion. A bit simplistic, but you get what I aiming for.
04-03-2014 07:15 PM
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herbm Offline

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Post: #12
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
I was estimating the cost of the printer to be in the $1000+ range but that is about what an S9 Autoset costs. As many tech people as I know (literally tens of thousands) I don't know specifically of one printer available to me -- there probably are some; maybe I will ask just out of curiosity.

My cost on the S9 Autoset was $173. (20% medical plan) Those without insurance would of course make a better market

Didn't expect you were ignorant of firmware -- but I doubt there is any pre-built code to run the pressure on a machine for inhale, exhale, score events, etc.

As to the generic parts, sure the Arduino or a tiny Linux (or both) might knock out a lot of the overall work, but I strongly suspect that pressure modulating work is a tough nut.

It would be nice to have something that acts like an SDCard but is still (wire) connected to a small computer or even a USB interface to any computer. Something where the Resmed could read the card at the same time the USB made it available as a (read-only is ok) mass storage unit.

Yes, the goal is to read the SDCard without removing the card from the S9. That way we could avoid removing and returning the card each day but still have daily data updates.

Can you print mask parts with typical materials like silicone plastics and gel pads etc? (I am ignorant of the variability of the printing materials available.)

Printing useful custom masks seems (just) within the realm of practicality at this point.

Sweet Dreams,

HerbM
Sleep study AHI: 49 RDI: 60 -- APAP 10-11 w/AHI: 1.5 avg for 7-days (up due likely to hip replacement recovery)

"We can all breathe together or we will all suffocate alone."
04-03-2014 11:33 PM
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c0reDump Offline

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Post: #13
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
(04-03-2014 04:41 PM)space45 Wrote:  this would be a non profit open source project, as for reverse engineering that is legal if it is for your own use or not for profit, in most places.
this should help out the ones that can not afford one, and for the guys in the poor 3rd world countries so they can feel better.
if any reverse engineering is done it could or would be done by a ever changing group, anyone wanting to add to or improve it can if they are able to and are interested in doing so.

I applaud your ideas space45. If the target market is poorer 3rd world countries, then best to try to figure out a way to make an ultra-cheap straight CPAP (sub $10 CPAP) -- ideally no software/computer involved in the machine at all. Of course, need to have ultra-cheap supplies as well (masks / tubes / etc). Probably should ditch the heated humidifier, and make the CPAP solar-chargeable since even electricity can be rare in 3rd world nations.
04-04-2014 07:40 AM
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space45 Offline

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Machine: ResMed S9 VPAP Auto
Mask Type: Full face mask
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CPAP Software: ResScan SleepyHead

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Location: B.C. Canada

Post: #14
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
printing the hard section is easy, not sure if printing with silicone plastics is possible, there are some other flex filaments that may work in its place but gel pads are not printable yet
there are guys that have a business print things for you so for a few buck you can contract it to be done
if you know 10s of thousands of tech guy you will have a very large number of printers in the group, or your are highly targeted to non real life tech or your definition of tech guys is vastly different from mine.
"the Arduino or a tiny Linux (or both) might knock out a lot of the overall work", that sounds good, the c and c++ code the Linux unit could run and the i/o and other code for ras pi and Arduino could make a very good combo of hardware to use with little added expense.

when I get some time I will look at the networking of resmed mem chips for you, maybe another open source project in the works. could also be used in the open source PAP unit as well, would also give some info as to data flow and storage for the open PAP

(04-03-2014 11:33 PM)herbm Wrote:  I was estimating the cost of the printer to be in the $1000+ range but that is about what an S9 Autoset costs. As many tech people as I know (literally tens of thousands) I don't know specifically of one printer available to me -- there probably are some; maybe I will ask just out of curiosity.

My cost on the S9 Autoset was $173. (20% medical plan) Those without insurance would of course make a better market

Didn't expect you were ignorant of firmware -- but I doubt there is any pre-built code to run the pressure on a machine for inhale, exhale, score events, etc.

As to the generic parts, sure the Arduino or a tiny Linux (or both) might knock out a lot of the overall work, but I strongly suspect that pressure modulating work is a tough nut.

It would be nice to have something that acts like an SDCard but is still (wire) connected to a small computer or even a USB interface to any computer. Something where the Resmed could read the card at the same time the USB made it available as a (read-only is ok) mass storage unit.

Yes, the goal is to read the SDCard without removing the card from the S9. That way we could avoid removing and returning the card each day but still have daily data updates.

Can you print mask parts with typical materials like silicone plastics and gel pads etc? (I am ignorant of the variability of the printing materials available.)

Printing useful custom masks seems (just) within the realm of practicality at this point.
04-04-2014 01:11 PM
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WILL CASEY PURVIS Offline

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Post: #15
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
(04-03-2014 02:03 PM)space45 Wrote:  I do CNC and other automated device things, I am now getting deeper into 3D printers and such. so my idea is what about a open source CPAP, APAP, VPAP or what ever machine?

the machines seem to be out of this world expensive and I know why, insurance companies will pay, and anything connected to health need big time insurance and they need big time money for covering the cost of getting sued. so you end up with big $$$$$$ for you and me, really all the unit is is a computer controlled fan that blows air. now yes it has sensors and a few other things but for the most part it is a fan, high tech fan but fan non the less. one could 3D print the housing and use Arduino based controllers for making it work.

one could have it monitor hart and o2 as well as other things and do every thing a commercial unit does but at a fraction of the cost. add to it as needed, plain CPAP no problem, want more just upgrade by buying a sensor or 2 and load in new code to the controller and your upgraded.

would be easy to have it monitor and record your o2 and even alarm if your wanting. you could set it up for lots of alarm events, full screen readout so you know why the alarm went off and for other function like setting things up.

one could have it work with sleepyhead, another open source product for the apnea crowd, this would just be some hardware to go along with the software.

this could be big as us rich guys in developed countries are not the only ones in need of CPAP units, I am sure there would be a great need for inexpensive alternatives that can turn out to be much better units then the ones we are using now. more options and features for much less money.

I would love to have o2 reading as well as being able to add other options and do it all for very little money. in less time then it took to have my unit shipped to me I could have printed a unit and had a functioning machine. all the parts could be gotten local and been here in a day or 2 not weeks that my unit took.

just a thought, looking for feed back on this, I will still play with the idea as I would like a back up unit in case mine dies, so I will be working to this end anyways as I do think it is a cool idea, already looked into making o2 sensors and it looks very doable. I know making the case is a snap, and getting a motor and making the impeller for the fan unit is a easy do so adding a few sensors and some code and one would have a basic functioning unit.

sound like fun to me, and maybe it will help others that are not able to pay the price of a good working unit. I know some will say just buy used, but if you make one from off the shelf parts then it will be a fixable unit that could last for several life times of use. mind you buying a used one would be cheap and easy, but can others in 3rd world places buy our used units, and to them it is still big bucks, I am thinking of a new useable unit for less then $100, if using used parts and doing some scrounging it could be less, and the used parts do not have to be CPAP parts

anyways feed back would be great

thanks
stan
definitely think you should call me
will casey purvis
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or give me your # and i will call you
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03-31-2015 09:00 AM
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player Online

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Post: #16
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
Great idea imo. Can you print bpa free plastic?
03-31-2015 10:23 AM
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TyroneShoes Offline

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Post: #17
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
I really like your open mind and inspired thinking here.

But I am skeptical. And primarily because the cost of a xPAP is not the manufacturing, it is the software/firmware development and testing. So I don't see how a 3D printer would impact this.

You could probably print me a BMW, too, but probably not below the cost of one off the showroom floor. As long as we are printing, run me off my own personal copy of Kate Beckinsale, and then we can talk.
03-31-2015 04:14 PM
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AshSF Online

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Post: #18
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
The only issue I see with the plan is reliability engineering. The motor in the machine can't be all plastic parts. You need good old metal at some places which can't be printed currently. And conductors to run the motor on electricity.

You can't get a machine with MTBF way over 10000 hours For less than ResMed air sense 10 price of $880 retail.

Custom masks is where this idea can be of much use. But metamason is already trying it in San Diego.

The other more feasible approach you can take is hack the machine's firmware and add features to it (just like Tomato and DDWRT do with wifi routers).

My 2 cents.

Started APAP 4-20, Closed range to 7.5-14, then straight 8.0 w/ Aflex 3
RDI always below 1. But sleep much much better at straight pressure.
Started on F10, Tried Quattro Air successfully. Finally settled on P10.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2015 12:27 AM by AshSF.)
03-31-2015 11:07 PM
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estgad Offline

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Post: #19
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
just some rough thoughts.

Raspberry pi would probably work for the "brains" of the machine.
I believe it would be fairly simple for it to connect to the different sensors and activators for the fan and humidifier.
And it would be easy to have it connect via wifi to upload the data.

A language such as golang would be great for the open source part of it. It compiles to executable, and is designed for concurrency and to use different "channels" for responding to events (such as responses from sensors).

As mentioned, 2 major problems would be in getting programmers to do the coding, AND in the cost of getting access to a 3D printer.
Having to buy a 3D printer would eliminate the cost savings. And places that print things for you usually charge so much that it is not that effective of a solution.
Such as my local library got in a 3D printer. I designed a cell phone stand. The library said their fee for printing it would be around $15 to $20.
Out of curiosity I checked with a few of the online printers and for that same design their charges were in the $40 to $60 range. This is for an object that has very thin walls and is pretty small. Nowhere near the size that would be needed for a pap machine case.

One other thing about the 3D printers. Many of the smaller (lower priced) ones are very limited in the size of the objects that they can print.

Oh, and as to printing the mask. Sure the 3D printer would be good for the rigid plastic parts of it. But what about the soft silicone, such as the nasal pillows or the seal for a face mask?

Personally I like how you think. This kinda goes along with my thoughts on hearing aids. It "should" not be that hard to make an ear bud that wirelessly pairs with your phone, where the phone "equalizes" the incoming sounds to create the output needed to correct the persons hearing loss.
Or the ear bud contains the circuitry and mic and just uses the phone to adjust the settings to create the correct levels of "equalization".
Sounds pretty simple, but when broken down to the specific details it becomes quite another matter where the big question becomes:
"Is the juice worth the squeeze?"

So the questions become can the difficulties be overcome, and would it be worth the effort, would you really save anything?
04-04-2015 12:29 PM
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archangle Offline
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Post: #20
RE: A idea for a new PAP machine
(04-03-2014 04:41 PM)space45 Wrote:  this would be a non profit open source project, as for reverse engineering that is legal if it is for your own use or not for profit, in most places.

Reverse engineering is NOT legal, even for personal use, if patents are involved.

Your chance of getting caught or sued goes way up if you do it for profit, share, or help others infringe on the patent.

(04-03-2014 04:41 PM)space45 Wrote:  as for liability it is open source and the info about making it would come with warning to use at your own risk. there would be no one person designing it and the person using it builds it themselves, even if he does buy parts or kits the final assembly would be done by the user.

That does not necessarily protect you against liability. It especially doesn't protect you from being sued and having to spend a lot of money to defend yourself.

(04-03-2014 04:41 PM)space45 Wrote:  I would doubt the government would get exited about this, even if they did, how would they stop anyone from around the world from working on it and making it a viable unit to use if they so choose to do so?

The government is hard to second guess. The bureaucrats of often stupid. They're also very concerned about preserving their turf. Very often, the regulators are in bed with the people they're supposed to regulate. That can be outright bribery. It can also be things like lobbyists taking bureaucrats to lunch, or paying for conferences. The regulators are often industry insiders. Bureaucrats who "behave" are often given jobs by the industries they used to regulate after they retire or leave their agency.

Even if there's no outright improper rewards, regulators often have a cozy relationship with the industry they're supposed to be regulating. The companies rely on the regulators to keep down competition. The regulators like to have things that let them build up the size of their agency/empire.

The FDA, in particular is often very capricious about going after anything that that takes things out of the control of the regulated medical mafia. They went after a company that would allow you to send them a DNA sample and get it analyzed.

As for patents, there are a lot of totally bogus patents out there. You might find, for instance, that one of the "big boy's" in the CPAP business has some ridiculous patents.

You might find that BigBoy Medical (BBM) has a patent that they claim gives them the exclusive right to put the airflow sensor between the air inlet and the fan. Then they have a separate patent that covers putting the airflow sensor between the fan and the outlet. I'm not kidding about how stupid and frivolous patent and lawsuit claims can be. It's quite common for companies to try to "patent the air" and make ridiculous claims that the patent office will approve.

Then there are patent trolls. They make highly dubious claims and send people protection racket letters telling them to pay up or they'll drag them into court and cost them a lot more in legal fees than their goombah lawyer is asking. You can easily lose more in lawyer fees than you can afford, even if you are "innocent." Getting your legal fees back is nearly impossible in the current legal system. Even when you win a countersuit, you often find that you were sued by some separate legal "entity" someone created that has no actual assets that can be collected.

I'm not saying these things would happen. Just don't assume they can't happen.

These days, if you do a project like this, you need to be a part of some organization that will fight for you, or almost act like a criminal organization and make sure you can't be traced.

Get the free SleepyHead software here.
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04-04-2015 05:55 PM
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